What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby JoelKatz » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:30 pm

kanaas wrote:
JoelKatz wrote:and where one currency is the ideal vehicle currency.

missing that in the plan ...

We have not publicly discussed the specifics of our XRP strategy yet.

Robbieboy2 wrote:Well, ...you did one thing and then 'pivoted'. So regarding the origanal vision before you pivoted...Is RCL being mothballed or will there be a strategy to grow this particular closed ledger and XRP aspect of the new vision? I just don't see how we can expect the RCL will continue to grow if you will not promote it, and not allow it to grow organically either (frozen account creation). Or will there be some new life and strategy to come to the RCL aspect?
We pivoted away from the "grassroots" strategy and to an enterprise strategy years ago. Shortly after we did, pretty much everyone else in this business did as well.

By the way Bitcoin has done OK with it's grass roots strategy, it is not exactly a pointless project.

Bitcoin did well with the grass roots strategy in the early days for a variety of reasons that don't really apply to other projects. One of them is the large number of early miners who have valuable Bitcoins to spend. However, that's a resource that's running out and companies pursuing a Bitcoin merchant/user strategy are finding they now have to pivot. Bitcoin is, of course, not a pointless project at all. But it's not because a large number of individuals are building small organic Bitcoin closed loops.
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Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby Robbieboy2 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:18 pm

JoelKatz wrote:We have not publicly discussed the specifics of our XRP strategy yet.


So there will be one then?

JoelKatz wrote: Bitcoin did well with the grass roots strategy in the early days for a variety of reasons that don't really apply to other projects. One of them is the large number of early miners who have valuable Bitcoins to spend. However, that's a resource that's running out and companies pursuing a Bitcoin merchant/user strategy are finding they now have to pivot. Bitcoin is, of course, not a pointless project at all. But it's not because a large number of individuals are building small organic Bitcoin closed loops.


yes but can't you see that the primary reason people are bothering to evolve the Bitcoin ecosystem is because Bitcoin has had that massive userbase and a foundation that encouraged it. If there was no interest in Bitcoin and bitcoin account creation was suspended then people would be attempting to pivot in the universe of some other coin. Even though btc is not the most advanced technology around it remains top of the CC heap because of its users and community coming up with ideas of continuity. Perhaps any system has to go through several revolutions before it gains stability and defined usage.
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Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby JoelKatz » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:59 pm

Robbieboy2 wrote:
JoelKatz wrote:We have not publicly discussed the specifics of our XRP strategy yet.


So there will be one then?

There definitely is one.

Robbieboy2 wrote:
JoelKatz wrote: Bitcoin did well with the grass roots strategy in the early days for a variety of reasons that don't really apply to other projects. One of them is the large number of early miners who have valuable Bitcoins to spend. However, that's a resource that's running out and companies pursuing a Bitcoin merchant/user strategy are finding they now have to pivot. Bitcoin is, of course, not a pointless project at all. But it's not because a large number of individuals are building small organic Bitcoin closed loops.


yes but can't you see that the primary reason people are bothering to evolve the Bitcoin ecosystem is because Bitcoin has had that massive userbase and a foundation that encouraged it. If there was no interest in Bitcoin and bitcoin account creation was suspended then people would be attempting to pivot in the universe of some other coin. Even though btc is not the most advanced technology around it remains top of the CC heap because of its users and community coming up with ideas of continuity. Perhaps any system has to go through several revolutions before it gains stability and defined usage.

As you saying XRP should adopt the same strategy as Bitcoin and try to unseat it? Fighting the market leader for a share of a market that's only a tiny fraction of the size it should be is a terrible strategy. Better to grow the market, let the market leader keep its use cases, and pursue new use cases. The market for intermediary currencies in cross-currency, cross-issuer payments is orders of magnitude larger than the direct, closed-loop market for crypto-currencies will be in the foreseeable future.
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Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby kanaas » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:57 pm

JoelKatz wrote:As you saying XRP should adopt the same strategy as Bitcoin and try to unseat it? Fighting the market leader for a share of a market that's only a tiny fraction of the size it should be is a terrible strategy. Better to grow the market, let the market leader keep its use cases, and pursue new use cases. The market for intermediary currencies in cross-currency, cross-issuer payments is orders of magnitude larger than the direct, closed-loop market for crypto-currencies will be in the foreseeable future.


But what makes you so strong in believing RCL/XRP will become the center of FX with ILP interconnecting the global cluster of ledgers?
Just saw a tweet of an Earthport guy mentioning BoE could issue crypto GBP that can easily replace XRP... If that's going to happen with GPB or USD, EUR ... whatever fiat giant your whole plan with RCL and XRP is dead in the water.
Here's a link to that tweet https://twitter.com/marovdan/status/664074894624296960
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Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby JoelKatz » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:30 pm

kanaas wrote:But what makes you so strong in believing RCL/XRP will become the center of FX with ILP interconnecting the global cluster of ledgers?

Because that will be the focus of our XRP strategy.

Just saw a tweet of an Earthport guy mentioning BoE could issue crypto GBP that can easily replace XRP... If that's going to happen with GPB or USD, EUR ... whatever fiat giant your whole plan with RCL and XRP is dead in the water.

I think there are inherent benefits to using a crypto-currency for this purpose because it has no counterparty, ultimately has a predictable supply, and isn't tied to any particular jurisdiction. But you're right, if crypto-currencies can't make a better intermediate/vehicle currency than fiat currencies can, even given the specific things we'll do to make XRP best for this purpose, then the plan is dead in the water.
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Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby Robbieboy2 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:42 am

JoelKatz wrote:As you saying XRP should adopt the same strategy as Bitcoin and try to unseat it?


No, not now. I think that ship has almost sailed, although I believe that with a more refined approach it could be possible to unseat Bitcoin. Cryptocurrency is still a very underground thing. If anyone were to take it to the mainstream I think Ripple would be better qualified than most.

JoelKatz wrote:Fighting the market leader for a share of a market that's only a tiny fraction of the size it should be is a terrible strategy.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. Google might be one example of a company that fought a market leader for a share of a market that was only a fraction of its potential size, emerged dominant and then expanded the market.

JoelKatz wrote:The market for intermediary currencies in cross-currency, cross-issuer payments is orders of magnitude larger than the direct, closed-loop market for crypto-currencies will be in the foreseeable future.

I agree with this but why not persue both? why not create the future instead of just conforming to what exists. I just feel with a little concerted advertizing, some developer support and a few other things you could bring RCL and XRP up to a critical mass where the ball would roll somewhat on its own and be taken seriously as something to plug into.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to offer some insight David, appreciated.
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Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby kanaas » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:05 am

JoelKatz wrote:I think there are inherent benefits to using a crypto-currency for this purpose because it has no counterparty, ultimately has a predictable supply, and isn't tied to any particular jurisdiction. But you're right, if crypto-currencies can't make a better intermediate/vehicle currency than fiat currencies can, even given the specific things we'll do to make XRP best for this purpose, then the plan is dead in the water.


Actually you say here that Ripple has opted to place RCL/XRP in competition to (digital) fiat, with (central) banks on the arbitration handles.
That's David (what's in a name) against an armee of Goliaths... Very ambitious and a golden mountain can be the reward .... if it succeeds.
I'm afraid that central banks never will allow a private token in the center of the forex markets. They will always prefer their very own USD, EUR, GBP... even with every single drawback you mentioned. And those drawbacks are not of a kind that they will hamper to much.

I can follow Robbie when he says that Ripple should walk on a second leg in the business plan to...
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Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby JoelKatz » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:44 pm

kanaas wrote:I'm afraid that central banks never will allow a private token in the center of the forex markets. They will always prefer their very own USD, EUR, GBP... even with every single drawback you mentioned. And those drawbacks are not of a kind that they will hamper to much.

The more of the market they exclude themselves from, the easier it will be for others to take those parts of the market from them. Unless laws prohibit a transaction, a party refusing to participate in that kind of transaction just leaves that part of the market for others.
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Re: What's the future (ILP-enabled) version Ripple?

Postby kanaas » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:04 pm

JoelKatz wrote:
kanaas wrote:I'm afraid that central banks never will allow a private token in the center of the forex markets. They will always prefer their very own USD, EUR, GBP... even with every single drawback you mentioned. And those drawbacks are not of a kind that they will hamper to much.

The more of the market they exclude themselves from, the easier it will be for others to take those parts of the market from them. Unless laws prohibit a transaction, a party refusing to participate in that kind of transaction just leaves that part of the market for others.


Doubt that laws will stand in the way. The European PSD2 directive is a great example in what direction regulation is moving. I short it says that banks on both sides of a payment/transaction must give access to their user accounts for any third party processor (not needing a bank license). Only one of those 2 banks has to be European. I do not see a reason why that transaction/payment cannot be X-currency. For 3d party payment processors exploring PSD2, ILP/RCL can be a real great tool. So for Ripple, on European ground, you do not need to chase just banks to make RCL attractive :)
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