Consensus...mechanisim UNL

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Re: Consensus...mechanisim UNL

Postby GryphonArk » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:07 am

JoelKatz wrote:
GryphonArk wrote:The wrap up is Ripple is tacitly centralized via UNL and "need to listen" ore easily taken over by a bundle of amazon EC2's. I'm not sure which.
Any system has some mechanism by which that system is regulated and where if a majority of that mechanism is controlled by malicious entities, you cannot rely on that system. With Bitcoin, it's miners. If the majority of them conspire against you, you cannot transact. All it takes to be a miner is money. With Ripple, it's the servers on your UNL, which you can choose.


well no, a miner with money faces the choice of self destruction of that value. That is the self balancing parameter. Sure it could still happen and thats the common knowledge 51% risk.

When I tried to look into ripple a bit more, the UNL seems to be the tacit centralization and perhaps closed system by your 'who would listen comment'. My wrap up stands. That is the elective choice, which you appear to confirm.

Each may have its merits. Either way but Ripple looks to be able to be taken over more easily that BTC or forked. BTC is forked all the time. I am kinda surprised no one has forked ripple yet.

I also don't think the number or XRP are set in stone as it can be either taken over or ripple can change the codebase.

Also the 80% server requirement looks to favor the initial starters of a system [not saying this is bad].

PeerCoin pos+pow seems to overcome just mining by hash though, it makes the price to buy in for coin generation much higher than just buying hash.

disclosure
I hold XRP, BTC,PeerCoin
Last edited by GryphonArk on Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Consensus...mechanisim UNL

Postby donch » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:12 am

GryphonArk wrote:Each may have its merits. Either way but Ripple looks to be able to be taken over more easily that BTC or forked. BTC is forked all the time. I am kinda surprised no one has forked ripple yet.


Only one person in the world fully understands the code behind the Ripple consensus mechanism, the Ripple ledger storage format and the rules for transaction settlement. That's why it hasn't been forked.
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Re: Consensus...mechanisim UNL

Postby GryphonArk » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:15 am

donch wrote:
GryphonArk wrote:Each may have its merits. Either way but Ripple looks to be able to be taken over more easily that BTC or forked. BTC is forked all the time. I am kinda surprised no one has forked ripple yet.


Only one person in the world fully understands the code behind the Ripple consensus mechanism, the Ripple ledger storage format and the rules for transaction settlement. That's why it hasn't been forked.


Please elaborate...its all open source right?
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Re: Consensus...mechanisim UNL

Postby donch » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:29 am

GryphonArk wrote:
donch wrote:
GryphonArk wrote:Each may have its merits. Either way but Ripple looks to be able to be taken over more easily that BTC or forked. BTC is forked all the time. I am kinda surprised no one has forked ripple yet.


Only one person in the world fully understands the code behind the Ripple consensus mechanism, the Ripple ledger storage format and the rules for transaction settlement. That's why it hasn't been forked.


Please elaborate...its all open source right?


Well, as far as I can tell, Jed McCaleb wrote the initial small prototype of the current Ripple, based on a previous implementation. He hired David Schwartz to help finish the job. Jed left Ripple. The codebase develops over 2 years and gets open sourced 6 months ago. Nik, Vinnie and more recently Howard also work on the core code, but tend to avoid some of the trickier areas, namely the serialization, ShaMap state tree (the ledger), consensus and transaction settlement bits of code. You can see this by following the activity on Github. It feels a bit like stalking, but to be honest, it's the only way to understand what's being worked on.

I'm a proficient C++ coder who gave up on C++ to use Go full time and have recently been working on extracting the full ledger for public perusal, mostly because it's quite interesting :-) In the process I've read a lot of the code and can say, without meaning to be rude, that a lot of it is untested and has tons of legacy code which never got implemented, finished or has been forgotten about. All core bugfixes are done by David and his commits don't really help in the understanding of what the bug was in the first place. If I asked for the equivalent of the original Satoshi paper for Ripple, I'd be pointed at the wiki. But that too is out of date and full of incorrect information.

So yes, all the answers lie in the open source code. But to understand it and realise which bits are being used and why the decisions were made to do it that way, you'd also need the one person who fully understands Ripple.
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Re: Consensus...mechanisim UNL

Postby GryphonArk » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:18 am

I thought joelkatz would understand it he seems pretty switched on.
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Re: Consensus...mechanisim UNL

Postby freequant » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:44 am

GryphonArk wrote:I haven't bothered reading any of the explanations people went some great length to write for me in this thread but I still claim that I'm right anyway because I was born with the inate capacity of being always right about everything even stuff I don't really understand.

FTFY
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Re: Consensus...mechanisim UNL

Postby BeRichLiveFree » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:04 pm

GryphonArk wrote:This is the whole point of satoshis premise / paper and decentralization. And it does blow one's mind. Self interest is the answer. It works, note people left mining pools when it went too high, voluntarily. Wogtami notes the value/importance of a distributed p2p hash pool to finally solve this problem.

I agree people left mining pools voluntarily--no problem there.

It still does not negate the issue of pool mining. People form groups for all kinds of reasons--protection, social interaction, religion, control of resources. etc.

Mining pools are formed to leverage hashing power to increase return on investment, i.e. to make money. It is about the control of as much hashing power as you can convince others you are trustworthy of holding.

And, trust me the people who left the mining pool are not the ones that I am at all concerned about--it is the ones that didn't! LOL

Do you think these large mining groups do not have a core group of people in control? Who started the pool? Who is administering the pool?

As, I said 3 large mining groups have more than 51% of the hashing power. How do I know they do not work together? Because they say they do not?

Second problem--they mine most of all new Bitcoins produced. Do you really expect me and others to believe they do not or can not use them to influence the markets?

Again, you are correct! Most people will put their self interest first. The will not destroy BTC, where is the profit in that--the profit is in the control of the money and supply. Control at least until 2140! Dam, almost sounds like I am talk about the Fed.

They most likely have enough BTC banked to drive the market down by selling, then buying low and then creating a shortage by holding. Every market has people trying for more control, trying to get an advantage! What makes you think BTC is any different?

I just laugh at the people who will point at Ripple Labs or XRP and try to come up with all of these issues. And, most of them are people who just love BTC.

I do not care if you want to bring up the fact that XRP is pre-mined or that Ripple Labs owns so many XRP, etc. I have spent the last year looking at both blockchain coins and Ripple. I will laugh at everything you most likely bring up as a problem with Ripple or XRP.

All, I can say is look hard at your own back yard! And, do not believe all the fertilizer is about growth--some of it is just pig shit!

BeRichLiveFree :+1: 8-) :+1:
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Re: Consensus...mechanisim UNL

Postby GryphonArk » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:51 am

freequant wrote:I resort to ad hominem attacks rather than meaningfully engage in the free congress of ideas on point. I failed to address a single point made by any party itt, even though I profess the deeper meaning to be there and apparent to at least myself. Even if I am right I chose to degenerate those who would inquire, rather then upbraid, it may be the issues are in fact to recondite for me.


NIFTFY
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